3.5 year old girls? (a frustrated vent)

stayawake

stayawake

New member
Can someone PLEASE tell me what a 3 and a half year old girl should be physically capable of?

I just had another gigantic showdown with Miranda who I brought in from outside where were were building a snowman because her brother needed to go down for a nap, and she was 'too tired to finish' (we had been out for maybe 10 minutes - mostly her sitting in the snow). I had to feed her brother and put him down so I asked her to take off her boots and coat. I would help her with her snowpants when I came down. (just to clarify, she had a 13 hour sleep last night, and a huge healthy breakfast and she isn't sick)

Screaming and crying ensued.

More screaming and crying when I tried to calmly explain to her how to pull off her boots with her hands. She says 'I can't, it's too hard, I don't know how to'. Over and over. We try this every day.

We have been working for months now on self-care skills. The girl still will not take one step on her stool to sit herself down on the toilet (though she's been toilet trained for a year) I have to lift her up, and get her off. She hangs there limp like a rag doll. She cannot put on shoes, or any article of cloathing without the same going-limp routine and needing me to do it all for her. She won't even push her leg through the leg hole of pants!

Our doctor told us she has low muscle tone from birth, and will lag a little in gross motor development, but didn't seem to think it would affect her much in life. This is a girl who is beginning to read, and can write her name and other words perfectly, she is doing addition and subtraction and can follow complicated multi-step directions perfectly well in other areas of life! So it's so frustrating for me that she will not walk up or down stairs and in fact sometimes asks to be carried to other parts of the room!

Is it too much that I expect her to start at least helping me dress her? To take off her own hat?! Her one year old brother puts his own shoes on and can certainly take off his own pants, which is only demonstrating to me more that something is wrong.

GRR!! I am so fed up with her right now. I don't know if she's lazy or if I have completely spoiled her or if I need to get her medically assessed or something. BAH!

Thanks for letting me vent.
 
sorry your going through this. My Emma just turned 3 in October. she at times will be stubborn like this, but most of the time its the opposite "I do it myself, mommy". she can get dressed (though sometimes needs help getting shirts off) put on her shoes, (though on the wrong feet at times, lol) put on her coat, steps on her stool for the potty, wash her hair (sort of, i usually have to intervene, lol) and can even turn the water on and off in the bathtub. it just has one knob. but she can also be extrememly stubborn. she will not let me comb her hair. its a battle everyday. i have to hold her down with one arm or wrap my legs around her to brush it. and then its not that great a job. but she will let my MIL brush and style her hair just fine! or if we are getting ready to go somewhere, she'll not let me finish dressing her or put on her coat. she'll sit there and say "noooo". everyday is a battle with her and i KNOW she does it on purpose cause sometimes she laughs when i get frustrated :D. i think the age of 3 is worse than 2, lol. so i have no advice; i need some too!
 
It's not too much sweetie... it's the age. She is right on track for pulling the "I can't do it" stunt over and over. lol Kids are either like this OR they are the extreme oposite... they want to do everything themselves. Both my girls did it and it was a DAILY battle of the wills to get them to do it themselves.

My neighbor across the hall has a 3.5 YO boy who does the same thing. For the longest time my friend thought he really couldn't do it until she spied on him at preschool and saw him take off his pants to potty and put them back on by himself. LOL From then on she refused to do it for him and now he's getting better at doing it himself.

It's hard and frustrating, but if you're concistent in making her do it herself no matter how long it takes... she'll get the idea.

Good luck hon... this age is so fun. lol
 
it's a control issue, no doubt. the going limp act...etc...she wants YOU to do these things for her plain and simple. she's trying to see what she can get away with and for a year you've been giving into it so she see's no reason to start now. a 3 1/2 year old is fully capable of doing those requested things. a medical assesment seems a bit extreme, imo. just be firm and refuse.

maybe make it fun for her, like a game. time her and she how fast she can do it, etc. kids like games. :) that's how i got my kids to clean up when they were toddlers, now they do it willingly and lovingly cause it never seemed like a chore to them. :)

"Our doctor told us she has low muscle tone from birth, and will lag a little in gross motor development, but didn't seem to think it would affect her much in life." <---btw, this would not stop her from removing her shoes.

HUGS HON!! this sounds like a pain in the butt!!
 
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I am glad to hear that other parents struggle too - I'm having a 'bad mommy moment' right now and have thrown on a video for her downstairs until I can cool off so I don't yell at her. I don't know if she's being stuborn because she's never acutally done any of these things, despite my best efforts to teach her (and teach her when we're not in a rush, and don't have to go anywhere).
 
a lot of why i think Emma does it is because she and Aidan are only a year apart, and there is a LOT of jealousy between them. i can't hold one of them without the other one coming over and wanting to be held too, hitting one another etc. its frustrating. i have a lot of 'bad mommy moments' too, lol. i don't like to lose my cool, but its been happening a lot lately. i'm feeling overwhelmed and underappreciated and it shows. my poor kids! :D
 
This week, I've told her I will not help her go to the potty anymore, she is a big girl and she can do it all by herself - and she gets a sticker for not needing my help... the result? She has continually wet herself and even had a bowel movement in her underwear (for the first time EVER - she was easy to toilet train).

I think it's clear I've spoiled her by helping her far too long with ordinary tasks. I need a new plan. Any further advice?
 
Cameron (almost seven) is an "I can't do it" kind of kid. Its not something we deal with much now that he's older, but it was a big deal when he was four years old. So, I know the frustration you're feeling.
But Liz is right. Its a control issue, plain and simple. And until you SHOW her that you aren't going to be doing things for her anymore, she will continue to "test" the limits. Maybe making a "chore chart" with stickers and prizes would make it fun for her. Like everytime she puts on her shoes all by herself (w/o throwing a fit), she gets a sticker. And the same goes for getting dressed, going to the bathroom, etc. Remember: the key is to not only have her do those things for herself, but do them w/o throwing a fit or whining for help. Then, when she gets x-amount of stickers, she gets a prize.
((Hugs)) hon. I know how frustrating this is. But just remember.... "this too shall pass". Three-four is a tough age.
 
stayawake said:
This week, I've told her I will not help her go to the potty anymore, she is a big girl and she can do it all by herself - and she gets a sticker for not needing my help... the result? She has continually wet herself and even had a bowel movement in her underwear (for the first time EVER - she was easy to toilet train).

I think it's clear I've spoiled her by helping her far too long with ordinary tasks. I need a new plan. Any further advice?
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Her having potty accidents is just another way to show her defiance. She's basically saying, "You won't take me to the potty? Well, then I'll just go in my pants". She's testing you. Stick to your guns. OH, and when she does have an accident, make her clean herself up (as much as she can at her age). She wants your HELP above all else, so thats what you need to withold as much as you can.

Good luck. This is such a trying age...
 
lindy, honestly...i don't have much more advice other than tough this one out. it's not gonna be easy from what i'm hearing. she's a super smart lil cookie and just doesn't 'get' why all of a sudden she has to do these things on her own. ya, she knows you want her too, but her 3 year old logic tells her to not do it, make you do it and go limp. :D lol...i just had a vision of a 3 year old limp on the potty. sorry...if she's having accidents maybe you need to buy her diapers and let her wear those since she's acting like a baby. i don't know how that would go over. my kids know without a doubt when i say something i MEAN IT...i don't know about your girlie. cause my children would've been devastated if they had to wear a diaper again.

hmmm...what about taking her to the store to pick out ANY treat she wants and talking with her before you get there about this REALLY SUPER SPECIAL TREAT is for her everytime she does any big girl thing on her own and explain that all to her...maybe ask her what she thinks a big girl should do...you know let her think on her own with small prompts from you. then explain that this SUPER SPECIAL TREAT is for everytime she does those big girl things on her own without her going limp, etc. maybe some really special sugar free gum or something...
 
FI's 6yo son does this, too, if it makes you feel any better.

He doesn't do anything willingly by himself when it comes to dressing or undressing, picking up toys, getting ready to leave the house, etc. Not only is he spoiled rotten and enabled to not have to do anything by both his mom & dad, but he also has a very very low frustration level like his dad does i.e. if he can't tie his shoes the first time, he's already given up and begun to whine. His mom finds it easier to do it all herself so she doesn't have to listen to his absolutely perfect whine, and we only have him 30% of the time, so FI feels a little helpless and useless when it comes to making him more independent.

For us, it has just taken time and persistence. FI took his son out every day for an hour or two for abt a week over the summer and forced him to ride his bike, moving the training wheels higher each time, until he could do it himself. There was lots of crying, whining, falling down from not listening to directions, 'I hate you and I hate bikes,' but now he can ride w/o training wheels and loves to bike when he has the chance.

Sometimes, it takes us 30 minutes to leave the house b/c FI's son has to tie his shoes (for some reason, his mom got him big rugged outdoor/camping boots that are extremely difficult to tie) and we're all sitting around waiting for him to finish.

What is her currency? Stickers must not be important to her. What abt a new doll? Going to the park? Maybe 3 or 4 or 5 stickers in a row could lead to something she really likes or wants?

Is there anyone older than her that she really admires? A cousin or even a cartoon character? 'So and So doesn't potty in their pants.' might be helpful.
 
oh boy, i feel your pain! My daughter is just barely four. She will dress herself and goes to the bathroom herself fortunately. It's just little things she won't do. If she comes out of her room at night, she wants us to close the door (which we are no longer doing). She wants to be carried quite often as well.

I wish I had advice for you, but I don't. You could try a marble jar or something and when she does these things herself, she gets a few marbles in her jar. When the jar is full she gets a "prize" or special privelege. It sort of works for my girls, but all kids are different.

Luckily for us, we're having another baby in a couple months so we say "you're a big girl and need to learn these things before the baby comes because we won't be able to help you as much."

Good luck!
 
I feel for you b/c I'm doing with the same thing! But Lily is almost 5 (in March). I do think it's attentionelated like Corey mentioned. She loves to have my undivided attn.
 
Sarah8914 said:
Luckily for us, we're having another baby in a couple months so we say "you're a big girl and need to learn these things before the baby comes because we won't be able to help you as much."
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do you think that might make her resent the new baby? sorry to pry...just a thought.
 
lizzyfizzy said:
do you think that might make her resent the new baby? sorry to pry...just a thought.
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No, not with her personality. That is a good point, but we have thought about it quite a bit. We don't exactly say it like that either. She's actually pretty independent, so it's just a few things. Now my other daughter... it could, but not this one!

We try to make it sound more like we'll need her help more, and she likes that. I know she will be very helpful with this baby!
 
Oh, my son was SOOOOO like this too. He still is to some extent, but he's now 6 and it's gotten a lot better. You might try making a stand on a few select things (I tried to make it something they'd want to do). With my son, one was getting himself out of his carseat. My DD could do this when she was 2, so I knew he could do it at age 4, though he still cried and claimed it was too hard. All you have to do is push the little button and it's not that hard. So, basically one day I told him that he would be getting himself out of his carseat from now on. The next time, he pulled the "I CAN"T DO IT" routine, I told him then we would just sit in the car until he got himself out. After about, oh, 20 minutes, he tried and of course he could get himself out and did. [I understand that some parents don't want their kids learning how to do this for fear that they may unstrap themselves when riding, but I never had any problems with it. They know that the car does not move unless everyone is strapped in and I will stop immediately if anyone unbuckles].

The other thing was getting dressed. We would not leave the house until he did it himself ( I made sure we were going somewhere fun). Not surprisingly, he managed to get his pants on by himself so that we could get to his activity.
 
^ooh! you're brave with the carseat thing!! this scares the crap out of me, lol! i have forgotten a couple of times ( i have 3 kids to buckle in!) to put chloe's seatbelt on. she's in a high back booster. and she flips out, lol. "mommy! stop! you forgot my seatbelt!" :D so i guess i'm lucky that atleast one of them won't try to get out. the other two try , but can't thank God!
 
junebug said:
^ooh! you're brave with the carseat thing!! this scares the crap out of me, lol! i have forgotten a couple of times ( i have 3 kids to buckle in!) to put chloe's seatbelt on. she's in a high back booster. and she flips out, lol. "mommy! stop! you forgot my seatbelt!" :D so i guess i'm lucky that atleast one of them won't try to get out. the other two try , but can't thank God!
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LOL Cameron did the same thing and now Connor does too. If I ever forgot to buckle one of them there was shrieking from the backseat like they were moments from impeding doom. lol
 
My dd, Kennedy, just turned four. She is like your daughter, very ahead mentally and she still throughs I can not do it fits, especially with physical things. I know she IS more than capable and it seems that that age for girls (my neice is the same age) is a bit of a power struggle and they start to want to exert some sort of control by NOT doing things. My daughter can do things when she WANTS too...but when she doesn't a fit will go down. We have just decided to ignore the fits and punish the bad behavior. We also (when she turned 4) got her a chart for her chores. This wasy we can track her progress and she can see it. That has always been something that works well for her. On that chart we have no whinning and simple things like dress yourself and brush your teeth.

Hang in there. I know I have those bad mom moments and days even. I am sorry you are feeling that way.
 
Sarah8914 said:
oh boy, i feel your pain! My daughter is just barely four. She will dress herself and goes to the bathroom herself fortunately. It's just little things she won't do. If she comes out of her room at night, she wants us to close the door (which we are no longer doing). She wants to be carried quite often as well.

I wish I had advice for you, but I don't. You could try a marble jar or something and when she does these things herself, she gets a few marbles in her jar. When the jar is full she gets a "prize" or special privelege. It sort of works for my girls, but all kids are different.

Luckily for us, we're having another baby in a couple months so we say "you're a big girl and need to learn these things before the baby comes because we won't be able to help you as much."

Good luck!
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I love that marble jar idea.
It can be so hard when they are 4 and still want to be carried. Esp. while being preggers.:p
 
Well, as a parent of TWO children who are low toned muscle and receive services through Early Intervention, I am going to recommend that you have your daughter evaluated. Low tone muscle is not something that will just necessarily go away. She may need to work with a PT and/or OT to get her strength up. Since your daughter is over 3 years old, she no longer qualifies for early intervention, however, your school system should be able to have her evaluated. My son is was extremely premature and is delayed with speech, PT and OT and he attends our town's integrated preschool where he receives services (free of charge) for all of his needs.

Your daughter may actually be unable to do a lot of the things you are requesting of her....making her really frustrated and angry...hence the cry and lashing out.

It wouldn't hurt to have it checked out.

Good luck,
Susan
 
I've been going through this with my son too. He's not low-muscle tone so he has absolutely no excuse. Part of it is a control thing, but for him part of it was a fear of failure. Sometimes they are little perfectionists even at a young age. It sounds like you daughter excels at some of the academic things and has probably received a lot of encouragement for her abilities in that department (rightfully so). However, she may be hesitant to really try at things that don't come easy for her. At least this is the case for my son. Here's what we did and its working, but still a work in progress.

We picked one thing he had to learn. In our case it was putting on his pants. We chose a day in which we had something fun planned that he was excited about (a picnic in the park), but no absolute time commitment. Then I told him we weren't going to the park until his pants were on and I wasn't helping him. One fit and 15 minutes later the pants were on and we were off to the park. We've since moved on to taking his shoes on and off, coming downstairs by himself, putting on his coat, etc.

Secondly I look for times when he tries something new and make it a huge deal with praise and encouragement whether or not he succeeds. He tried to hit a baseball off a tee in the yard and failed miserably - huge hugs and yeah for him for trying. He is getting the message that being willing to try things is good, whether or not he can actually achieve what he sets out to do.

It's still a long road, but he's gaining confidence and learning 'I can't do it" is unacceptable. The other day he asked me what 'unconventional' meant. I was busy and told him it was a tough would and I couldn't think of a way to explain it. He said, "but mom all you have to do is try". :) Glad to see he's getting the message.

Anyway, I hope you find something that works for your sweetie.
 
Chef said:
Well, as a parent of TWO children who are low toned muscle and receive services through Early Intervention, I am going to recommend that you have your daughter evaluated. Low tone muscle is not something that will just necessarily go away. She may need to work with a PT and/or OT to get her strength up. Since your daughter is over 3 years old, she no longer qualifies for early intervention, however, your school system should be able to have her evaluated. My son is was extremely premature and is delayed with speech, PT and OT and he attends our town's integrated preschool where he receives services (free of charge) for all of his needs.

Your daughter may actually be unable to do a lot of the things you are requesting of her....making her really frustrated and angry...hence the cry and lashing out.

It wouldn't hurt to have it checked out.

Good luck,
Susan
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It's very good to hear from someone else who has hypotonic children. Our Ped. never mentioned early intervention, and I had no idea it existed until I met another girl at her ballet class who had her ballet fees covered because of HER hypotonia (by the way, this is where I really realized my daughter is different than other girls her age. As one of the older girls in the ballet class she was not able to skip, or run or move like ANY of the other girls, I had no idea she was that different in her physical capabilities). Now I know it's too late, but I don't know what might help her now, or where to go for testing.

It's hard to know what is stubbornness and what is inability... I know with bike riding, she is physically unable to push the peddles (she was very motivated to learn, and we tried many many days in a row without her even being able to push them a tiny bit by herself, even if we push for a while and ask her to keep going) at this point. She was a year and a half before she took her first steps, and even now her ankles are very weak and so gets sores all over her feet when we walk any distance because she can't keep her feet upright. I think I need to pick one small thing at a time to encourage her to do. Since yelling at her this morning (bad mommy moment) she has been quiet as a mouse and tears have been rolling down her cheeks, without loud crying. I know she's upset that she disappointed me. She could care less for stickers or a new toy (she couldn't even think of ONE thing she wanted for Christmas - not after walking through a giant toy store!). She wants to make me happy, she also needs to be challenged more than I am challenging her, I'm sure.
 
As the mother of a low-toned almost-3 year old, I second Susan's recommendation to have your DD evaluated and see if she needs any PT or OT services. Some of what you're dealing with is the age, but some of it may be physical, too. It's true that low tone won't affect her much in the long run because she'll be able to reach a normal level of strength (which is all you need for things like walking, holding most non-physically demanding jobs, etc). But having low tone now may put her significantly behind in some of the physical tasks. Also, low tone gets worse when kids are tired, so there probably are things she can do at times but not when she's tired.

My DS will be 3 in March. You wouldn't know by looking that he has low tone, and you can't tell that his arms and upper back are his weakest parts--I know because the PT he's been working with for 2 years told me. He's very smart and knows all his letters, and I know he understands what we tell him. But he has a hard time getting his shoes off. He wants to get them off and tries hard to do it, but he just physically can't manage it yet. Boots are harder than shoes, so it's hard to say if your DD is being stubborn or actually is unable to do it.

My DS can't climb onto a chair or into his carseat independently even though he can get up on a couch or a step stool. His bed is very low and most 2-year olds could get on and off easily, but he needs a step stool to do it. He can climb up and down stairs holding on with 2 hands, but that has come recently because the PT at school has been working hard on it with him.

Other than that, ((hugs)). I can relate to your frustration!

ETA: You posted while I was typing. It isn't too late to get her therapy, and it may make a big difference for her. Call your local school district, since they will do free evals for kids who are 3+. If your daughter has a certain amount of delay (25% in my county) she'll qualify for free therapy, too. If not your insurance may cover private PT.

One other thing to know is that low tone can affect kids unevenly. It can affect some parts of the body and some skills more than others. For example, my DS has a gross motor delay of more than 25% but his fine motor skills are normal or possibly even above average. So it's hard to generalize that because your child does X they should also be capable of doing Y.
 
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She should be able to dress herself, if she is like my daughter though, its just easier for her if I do it so thats how she prefers it. Same with the stairs, she does them all the time then will suddenly decide she wants to be carried.
 
I teach children 3-5 who are delayed in a school district setting. I was going to recommend an eval, but I see you're in Canada, so the laws may be different there. Where I live, she wouldn't qualify based on low tone alone, but if nothing else, may you could put her in a preschool situation. It is so much easier for us as teachers to insist that a child do something for his/her self than it is for a parent, simply because it doesn't hit us in the gut when a child cries the way it does when you're the parent. I spent my entire morning working with a child who is used to have her parents do everything for her, and she cried, and she cried, and she didn't want to put her shoe back on after she took it off, and she didn't want to put her papers in her bag (she is low-tone, too), but when she realized that the other children were doing xyz and she wasn't going to get to do it until she did those things for herself and that I would wait her out, she got up and did it.

Stay strong, and just be prepared to wash lots of undies until she figures it out. Right now you're in a test of wills, and you've got to prove you are the one in charge. Good luck!
 
Now I know it's too late, but I don't know what might help her now, or where to go for testing.
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You need to call your school system and request an evaluation. My son is now 5 years old and couldn't push the pedals of a bike until last year. Low tone is a VERY real thing and it has to be addressed by a professional. It sounds to me from your description that your daughter would have a significant enough delay to qualify for free services.

If you aren't sure who to call in the school, I would call your local Early Intervention office and they will DEFINITELY be able to point you in the right direction. Every state has early intervention as it is a federally mandated program. Just google it for your state.

DARN - I just noticed that you are in Canada. I am not sure what the program is called in Canada but I can almost guarantee you that there is a program and services that you can tap into. Maybe ask your pediatrician for a referral...he/she should know as well.

I would definitely address it as soon as you can. Good luck!
Susan
 
MissKim said:
I teach children 3-5 who are delayed in a school district setting. I was going to recommend an eval, but I see you're in Canada, so the laws may be different there. Where I live, she wouldn't qualify based on low tone alone, but if nothing else, may you could put her in a preschool situation. It is so much easier for us as teachers to insist that a child do something for his/her self than it is for a parent, simply because it doesn't hit us in the gut when a child cries the way it does when you're the parent. I spent my entire morning working with a child who is used to have her parents do everything for her, and she cried, and she cried, and she didn't want to put her shoe back on after she took it off, and she didn't want to put her papers in her bag (she is low-tone, too), but when she realized that the other children were doing xyz and she wasn't going to get to do it until she did those things for herself and that I would wait her out, she got up and did it.

Stay strong, and just be prepared to wash lots of undies until she figures it out. Right now you're in a test of wills, and you've got to prove you are the one in charge. Good luck!
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My daughter is registered to start junior kindergarten in September, and I had her registered for a preschool program from January to April, but pulled her out in December before it started because I was actually worried that she wouldn't be able to cope with her lack of self-care skills - it is something I am aware of and have been working on for the past year. (She would happily go to school, she's not clingy and does not have separation issues when I drop her off at friends houses, church programs, library programs, etc. ). She is able to look after her belongings, and put away her own materials, definitly follows directions from teachers and plays well etc. I guess I hadn't thought about preschool actually improving her ability to dress herself and toilet independently!

There is a 'jumpstart' program that is twice a week for only two months I still might be able to get her into.
 
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